Burn The Playbook

Your Website Is Costing You Deals | David Nathan on Digital Presence That Converts

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In this episode of Burn the Playbook, Marc Crosby sits down with David Nathan, the CEO of Scaler Marketing. They discuss David's transition from exploring jungles in Costa Rica to founding a successful marketing agency that specializes in science and tech industries. David shares his insights on the importance of having a website that serves as an effective sales tool, the pitfalls of relying on outdated or poorly designed sites, and offers tips for integrating a website into a company's overall strategy. He also touches on challenges and opportunities in the evolving landscape of AI, web development trends, and how companies can give their sales and marketing teams the resources they need to excel.

David Nathan is the cofounder and CEO of Scaler Marketing, a brand-driven web agency that creates immersive and strategically grounded websites for science and technology companies.

After leaving a career in California, David moved back to Boston to build something more personal that he’d be proud to share with his kids. The result was Scaler, a team of designers, developers, strategists, and storytellers helping complex companies communicate with clarity and conviction.

David believes the best brands don’t chase attention. They express identity. That belief guides everything his team does, from uncovering a brand’s essence to turning it into an online experience that inspires action.

To them, a website is the foundation of sales and marketing that when done right, helps everything else fall seamlessly into place.

David serves on the board of SAMPS, is a devoted husband and father of five, an avid runner and hiker, and has a knack for getting lost in the jungle and finding his way out.

David Nathan's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidinathan/

Scaler Marketing: https://www.scalermarketing.com/

SAMPs https://www.samps.org/


00:00 Introduction to Burn the Playbook
01:05 David Nathan's Adventurous Background
02:32 Journey from Biology to Marketing
05:32 Founding S Scaler Marketing
09:11 Challenges and Evolution in Web Development
16:42 Importance of Brand Consistency
19:49 The Human Element in B2B Marketing
28:11 The Importance of Quick Responses in Sales
29:16 Transforming Your Website into a Sales Powerhouse
31:06 Common Mistakes When Hiring an Agency
33:32 Emerging Trends in Website Development
37:15 The Future of Websites
41:09 Burn or Build It: Rapid Fire Questions
48:48 Final Tips for Sales and Marketing Leaders
50:09 Where to Find Us and Upcoming Events

Views expressed are our own and do not represent any organizations

© 2025 Digital Rebels Consulting. All rights reserved.


SPEAKER_00:

This is Burn the Playbook. Burn everything that's holding you back. Welcome in. This is Burn the Playbook. I'm Mark Crosby and my guest today is David Nathan, CEO of Scalar Marketing. He left California, moved back to Boston and built an agency his kids could be proud of. Scalar helps science and tech companies cut through the noise with websites that don't just grab attention, they express identity. For David, a website just isn't a brochure. It's the foundation of sales and marketing. He is also a board member at Samps, a father of five, and somehow still finds time to run, hike, and gets lost in jungles. Welcome Welcome, David.

SPEAKER_01:

And Mike, how's it going?

SPEAKER_00:

Good to see you. I wanted to unpack that last note that you had in your bio there as far as getting lost in jungles. Kind of wanted to figure out, is that something that you typically do on purpose? Does it happen by accident? And does it happen often?

SPEAKER_01:

It's a good question. I would say I like to explore and I like to put myself in places that are maybe lesser traveled than most are comfortable with so I often sometimes I refer to that but it's technically referring to the time that I had spent in Costa Rica I lived there for a year and my job was to take people on hikes so I was just like 20 something 20 something kid from the states taking tourists from all over the world on hikes through the jungle with my machete in hand and every once in a while we'd go places that were lesser traveled and the trails weren't as well kept So we typically lose the trail and have to find our way back. So it's just kind of, you know, uh, I would say it's something that I learned to do then. And it was a really important lesson that I've taken through everything that I do. It's like, we don't always know where we're going, but we have the ability to figure it out. And even if we get lost and it's pouring rain and all you have is a machete and surrounded by venomous snakes, you know, there's, there's still a light at the end of the tunnel, you know? Awesome.

SPEAKER_00:

Well said very true. More people need to I hear that, and I love that mentality. So how did you go from slashing your way through jungles to developing websites and marketing?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Well, when I was there, that was actually my year after college, and I was still trying to figure out what to do. I was a biology major in college because that's what I grew up around. It's what I knew, and I kind of wasn't sure what else to do. So I studied biology, spent a year in Costa Rica, came back, had a a bunch of different jobs. It was really like a year in different locations for about four years, trying to find myself, uh, eventually got to a point where I was working in a lab as a, as a lab tech for a Marine biologist. And it was not what I thought it would be. I kind of thought, you know, Marine biology is gonna spark my passions and maybe I'll get a master's degree and a PhD in Marine biology, and I'll get to go on cool diving expeditions and study coral reefs. And it, it sounded glamorous at the time but I remember very vividly this one moment where I was sitting in the lab next door listening to the professor of that lab talking about his research and I don't remember what his research was about but I remember how excited he was and I remember distinctly thinking to myself why don't I feel that way like why have I never found myself feeling that way about the work that I'm doing and I always thought it was something wrong with me I always thought maybe I'm Maybe I'm just dumb. Maybe I'm lazy. Like, I don't know. But, you know, for some reason, I don't get into it as much as the people around me. And it was like literally that moment that I had this realization that maybe I'm just not supposed to be doing this and that's OK. Right. And so I immediately I reached out back to a friend who I went to high school with. We ran track together and she had started a business with some friends and had reached out to me when I was in D.C. the year prior and just was like, hey, you know, what are you doing? And she told me and started going into business with them. And I learned a whole lot about sales and marketing and business development and growth and team building. It was an amazing three years working with that team. And then, you know, that led to a number of different other experiences, eventually taking me to California where I was directing sales and marketing for a manufacturing company. This was, you know, 2012, 2013. So there was a whole world of internet marketing that was really starting to come to life around that time. Um, one of the books I read that year or over that four years was, uh, the four hour work week by Tim Ferris. And I remember trying to get my boss to give me, you know, one day a week. That's kind of what Tim says, like, just get your boss to give you one day a week. And he would not, he refused. Um, and you know, after four years of that company, I was really feeling like, um, I wasn't fully behind the products we were making and selling. And one of my jobs was, well, my job was to sell and market these products. And And I wasn't really sure where to go after that. And I decided to move back to Boston and start Scalar. And eventually, I wanted to make some use of my college degree as well and my background. And I believe in the sciences. And I believe that there's a lot of amazing innovations that really need help telling their story. So that's now what we largely focus on.

SPEAKER_00:

Nice. Very cool story. Love that book, 4-Hour Workweek, although I've never had a 4-Hour Workweek. But there's a lot of good principles in there. And I still follow those. Well, and that's not He's

SPEAKER_01:

like, he's like, some people think like, that's why, why would you want to do this? Well, the idea is do as much as you do now in four hours and then, you know, fill the rest of your week with that level of productivity. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Yeah. A lot of good concepts there. Um, so did you, did you niche down into, um, you know, science and technology as far as sales and marketing, like immediately, or is that something that you figured out over time? So like what came first, uh, you know, the niche or developing sales and marketing and websites?

SPEAKER_01:

So originally I thought I was going to focus on analytics and, you know, in trying to think, you know, what, what should my company do? Um, you know, this was, I mean, bottom starting from the bottom, right. And I, I didn't come from an agency background. I, you know, I wasn't working in marketing for a biotech company. So I was really trying to figure out what should this look like? I didn't have the network. I didn't have the portfolio. Um, but I was always good at math and I thought, you know, maybe I'll sell analytics services. And so my original tagline was growing your business through actionable results. And because I didn't have a network, I was just going to local businesses and trying to connect with people. And what I found was local businesses didn't have a budget for analytics. Go figure. So I like they couldn't they couldn't think that far ahead. And, you know, so but most of my early clients just needed websites. And the process really started to jive with me. I really liked the creative aspect of it. I saw a lot of websites out there that were quite frankly not terribly attractive or effective. And I knew what it was possible to charge for websites if they were good and you were working with decent sized companies. So it just seemed like a good direction to go in. And it probably took a few years to get to a point where we were more focused on the sciences. But again, I didn't really have the network. And if you don't have the portfolio, it's not the easiest industry to break into. So, you know, I had the background, which was helpful. And I had like a couple of clients here and there that were science related. And then we actually eventually connected with a larger agency that started pulling us in to website projects because they didn't have an in-house website team. And that's really how we grew our portfolio. So over the course of a couple of years, we grew our portfolio enough till we were able to say, you know what, this is a really good niche for us. There's a lot of help that can be provided to these companies. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of like, I think scientists tend to speak in a very scientific way and websites are often seen as like, let's just dump all this scientific information on people and they don't necessarily think about it creatively and from a branding perspective. So I saw a really big opportunity in the industry that I grew up in anyways. Um, and that's how we ended up focusing on that. So that was really like around the beginning of 2023. And we said, you know, I think our portfolio is there, you know, our revenues at a point where we can really start, uh, investing in our own marketing and going to some more conferences and things like that. So I started going to larger conferences and that's really where it became our focus.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotcha. Why is it that so many websites are just bad? I mean, they're not user friendly or they're not visually appealing or they haven't updated them in 10 years. There's just all these common problems that are so, at least for me and probably you, just very apparent. Like when you land on a website, you're just like, oh, I don't know what they do or how come they still has a 2012 copyright at the bottom or something like that. Why? Why is it difficult for companies to understand that a website should be important?

SPEAKER_01:

So I think there's a number of factors. One is not everybody tends to be on the cutting edge of the best way to do things. And I think the internet is just not that old, right? So you have this really interesting phenomenon right now where you've got really big businesses that grew before the age of the internet. And you have the people that were in charge of those businesses who are now on boards or who are now running other companies. And they're saying, well, we didn't need a website when we grew our business. So I don't think we need it now. And to some extent, that's still a little bit true, right? Like there are companies that don't have great websites that grow. Like I'm not here to tell everybody, if you don't have a beautiful website, you're not gonna grow your business. But what I think is eventually going to happen is you're going to have these larger companies who are resting on their laurels and you're going to have these younger companies who are coming up and saying, you know, we're going to do things in a modern way and we're going to get in front of people more effectively because we understand how the Internet works and we're going to really invest in those materials. And they're eventually going to take over these larger companies that either are resting on their laurels or it's, you know, an older CEO founder that says, you know, I've gotten this far. I'm retiring in a couple of years. Why? should I spend all this money on something that I haven't needed till now? And that's kind of how they're making their decisions. But I think it's also, you know, web design is not the simplest process, right? And this is why a lot of larger agencies don't have in-house website teams, because you really need a lot of really talented people with a wide array of talents to effectively make a website. And unless you have a regular flow of projects, it's really hard to staff that team, right? So it's from the creative side, from the copywriting side, from the visuals and the creative assets that you need to the, I think that I say copywriting, you need the copywriters, you need the technical developers, people who understand how to build it technically and all the backend things that need to be hooked up and working properly. So it's a lot of stuff that I don't even know necessarily how to do myself at the highest level. But if you're trying to pull that team together, it's a really challenging thing to do. So I think people end up usually lacking in maybe one or two or three of those areas and it's not the cheapest process right so when they're weighing their options i think it often gets overlooked because they don't necessarily value what it can do for them yet right because we're still i think in that transitional phase where the internet is just not that old you know modern websites you know websites have evolved drastically in the last five years even so

SPEAKER_00:

yeah i was doing some research before this and just looking looking at the dates as far as when the internet was first developed what was the first thing sold and it was the early 90s which I don't know maybe I'm just dating myself that seems like yesterday as far as but that was like dial up but then again I mean everything these days is scaling so fast with the internet and AI and everything that's coming out of that so I feel like if you don't have the website aspect of your business nailed down like right now then what does that look like as you know new iterations of you know artificial intelligence and agents and everything that comes with that is like you know every six months there's like a new thing so it seems like it's hard to keep up it is well that's why they need somebody like you to help them out

SPEAKER_01:

yeah sure exactly hopefully you know

SPEAKER_00:

what goes into like the mechanics of developing a website properly I mean I think that you know some people who maybe don't have an appreciation for you know all the the back end that you were just describing you know I think like oh if I need a website I can have it up and running in like a couple weeks like is Is that the case for most companies? Or if I really wanna do it right, how long should it take?

SPEAKER_01:

So you can build a website in a couple of weeks, right? I mean, there's still this debate, will we be replaced by AI, right? Like could within a few hours, could you have a really effective website? I don't think we're there yet, but most of the projects we work on, the timeline is usually four to six months. Every once in a while, a potential client will come to us and like, we've got this deadline in two months? And my response is usually, well, you know, why? Why are we trying to do this in two months? Why do you wait till now? Like, what's going on? And here's why you might not want to rush this. You know, we can sometimes come up with like a phase one, right? We got to get something up. So let's get something up. But the full project's not going to be done in two months. So, you know, the way we break down our process is you've got usually about a month up front for the strategy side of the project, right? Understanding the company, understanding the message understanding the target audience and how we want to speak to people and really mapping out the site, right? I think one of the reasons that companies often come to us is because there are sites just all over the place. It's hard to find things. It's hard to get from one place to another. There was not really ever any thought put into, okay, well, when somebody lands on the site, where do we want them to go and how do we make sure they get there? It's just, we've got all this information and we got to throw it on the website and put it somewhere. And over the years, it just becomes this web of interconnected pages. that are hard to find. And so there's a lot of effort put into just the organization of the site itself, especially for larger companies. But then after, so after you've got the month of strategy, and these are averages, but after the month of strategy, it's usually about a month for wire, I would say maybe one to two months for wireframing and design, right? So, okay, let's map out the content, right? We know now what we wanna say. We're gonna fill in some gaps here and there, but we've got the structure of the site. Now, like what's the outline of the site? homepage? What's the outline of the about page? And then we can start filling in those pieces. Then we create the design. And then the dev process is, at least for us, is a good chunk of the project, right? Because we've approved design, but things shift in dev. Once you see it live on a website, all of a sudden everybody says, oh, wait, this is actually going to go live. Hold on. This isn't working. This doesn't look right. And we know that. And things feel different once they're in dev and live and things are moving. And it always feels a lot smoother once it's actually developed. So it's usually like a two to three month process for development. Uh, and a lot of that's just all the QA QC, making sure forms are working, making sure the CRM is integrated properly and making sure Google tag manager is set up and analytics is firing correctly. Um, there's just a lot of technical little details that have to really be paid attention to, for the site to work properly. Uh, let alone just making sure it's working well and it's easy to use. It doesn't glitch and loads properly and all these different things. So

SPEAKER_00:

yeah, a lot of details like that. four to six months seems like a short time because i imagine you got to get a lot of people involved there's a lot of you know trial and error and like you said working out those glitches and things like that um in addition to that though i mean if you're focused on the websites i always find that there needs to be some sort of connectivity for for brands as far as you know to social media to your linkedin page to instagram and everything else that's out there um do you get involved with that as far as making sure that or at least bringing it to their attention saying like hey we're going to develop this for the website but you have to understand that your digital footprint, it matters for your sales team, for your marketing team and anybody else that's, you know, viewing your product. I think that, you know, I always talk about, you know, there's a misalignment sometimes with sales and marketing and that everybody needs to be speaking the same language. You all need to be rowing in the same direction. So do you do that with your website digital development for companies?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So we don't necessarily get heavily involved in the sales strategy side of things. but where we're largely focused is the visual side of the brand, right? So most of our clients that come to us need some sort of touch up on the branding, whether we're branding them from scratch or we're doing a rebrand, that definitely happens maybe 25 to 30% of the time. And then the rest of the time it's okay, this is our brand and it's kind of outdated, right? We don't want to change the logo. We've got a lot of brand value. So we're not changing the name. People recognize it. You know, we like our colors, but it's missing something. and the brand doesn't feel modern, right? So we're modernizing everything. And then, okay, well, we're going to spend all this time modernizing your brand and building your website, but how do you look on social media, right? What do your LinkedIn graphic templates look like? What do you send people when they ask for a brochure? What does your trade show booth look like? If you're going to spend all this money and time investing in your website, you better make sure your trade show booth matches the brand that you just created and all these different pieces that come together from from your business cards to your email templates to everything. So yeah, that's a big part of what we do just because, you know, we want our customers to succeed. And, you know, we also want everything to be consistent and brand consistency is really important. Like, do you look the same and equally as good everywhere that people find you? And if not, then we just got to find the gaps and fill them, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. If not, like I always say, people probably move on to something else. I mean, I think that at least in the markets that I have served in the past and that I served today, there's a lot of competition out there. A lot of people are saying the same thing. So even from a sales and marketing perspective, I go to a lot of trade shows and I know you do too. And a lot of those booths, they look exactly the same. I mean, some of the messaging is the same. I mean, you know, if you go to some of the more heavy hitter ones, you know, they tend to differentiate, but then they're pouring in, you know, seven figures into those booths. So they better look different. But I always, I guess, find that common problem of, you know, if I look at your booth, I look at your LinkedIn, I look at your digital front print and I look at your website and they're all kind of disconnected, it doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy of wanting to do business with you. And I would think that whether it's obvious or not, whether it's measured in a KPI, that feeling has to come across for somebody that potentially would want to do business with you. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I really like that you're using the word feelings because I don't think we often give people enough credit for being people. And this was actually a lesson and that I learned in my job when I was in LA, we were a B2B company and I was really trying to push the owner of the company to not to rebrand per se, but to redo all of his materials and create marketing materials that were attractive and told a story and showed the products differently. And, you know, as opposed to just these spreadsheets with a little teeny photo that, you know, it was just about the numbers and the price and MSRP and specs and whatever. And And his response to me at one point was like, we don't need to do that. That's a waste of money. We're a B2B company. Our dealers just want to know that the product's going to make them money. They don't care about all that other stuff. And in my head, I'm thinking, well, first of all, if the products don't look cool, nobody's going to buy it from the dealers. So you're not doing your dealers any favors by not marketing these products correctly. And the dealers are people too, right? Like, aren't those dealers going to be drawn to things that are cool to them? They're all They're also people. They also have feelings and opinions and preferences. So that's really, it was like, it was a big thing for me, especially when I started Scalar. It's like, we're not, there's, I don't believe in B2B. I think, yeah, there's a difference in marketing when you're marketing to consumers and marketing to other companies. Sure. Maybe it's the avenue. Maybe it's the types of ads and the way you're speaking, but ultimately it's P2P. We're all people, right? And if the products look good and it's appealing and you can create an emotional experience for people, whether that's a consumer or or a dealer, you're going to be more, you're going to be more effective. And, you know, when you, when you talk about feelings, if somebody comes to your website and the feeling they get is, I don't think this company takes themselves very seriously, or this kind of feels like it's in the stone age, or there's really no personality behind this company. I can't even tell who works there. Like the internet, just about the internet. And then I'll connect the two ideas. The internet is, is seen as a great equalizer, right? So all of a sudden, you know, some random company in the middle of, uh, you know, the Midwest somewhere that never had access to the big cities, all of a sudden can, can market and become a big company. Unlike they were ever able to do. Right. But the problem is they're now also competing against every other company all over the world. Right. So you can't just pick a name and start with an a and B at the top of the yellow pages anymore. Cause if somebody in Australia picked that name, you're competing with that guy over in Australia. Right. And the same thing, same thing with business now. It's like, yeah, it's an equalizer. Everybody has the equal opportunity now, but that just means you're competing against the whole world. So you don't have to just look better than the five businesses in your area. You have to look better than a hundred businesses. And if someone finds your website, they're going to find five to 10 other websites and they're just going to go by what feels right to them. And that's where you really have to pay attention to how you're making people feel.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And it better come through in your messaging as far as how you differentiate yourself between those other five or a hundred suppliers or companies that are out there and so there has to be the brand continuity as we talked about there also just has to be something that sets you apart from that pack I mean with everything that's going on in the world as far as just geopolitical issues supply chain issues with tariffs you know companies are looking for different suppliers whether they they have to or they don't they're looking for contingency plans or you know second sources or third sources so you know I think you have to be a little bit proactive as far as you know doing this work like right now and so when that happens other procurement person is looking for a new supplier or somebody to support their business, you better be getting them that warm and fuzzy or else you just might not be in that RFQ, RFP, or whatever you might want to call it. But it's certainly important. And I guess with that said, if I'm a CEO, CMO, obviously everyone wants KPIs and numbers. So for those people, I guess, that are looking for, hey, that's really great, David, about feelings. But how does that translate to the bottom How are you going to measure these feelings?

SPEAKER_01:

How do you measure feelings? Well, that's a good question. I guess, you know, so we're not necessarily, you know, we do a lot of SEO work, but we don't see ourselves as an SEO company per se, right? Where all we're going to do is we're going to look at your traffic and we're going to look at your leads and that's all we care about. Obviously, if a company is not growing and the website's not working for them, they're not going to want to continue working with us. But there's a whole lot of other, I wouldn't even call them intangibles because I've believe that they are very tangible. Um, but there are other factors that go into how effective a website can be that don't even necessarily show within, you know, how the website's performing. For example, if your website's not very attractive and it's really confusing and it doesn't work very well, how excited are your salespeople going to be to hand out a business card when they're at a trade show? Right. It's like, well, we just had a great conversation and you're asking me for my business card, but just here, but just, just don't go to the website. You know, like I think if you give, if you give your team something to be excited about and something to be proud of, they're going to be much more aggressive with spreading the word on sharing that with people, right? So that's one thing. It's how quickly can your marketing team update the website and make changes on a regular basis so that they can try new methods of marketing, so they can try new ad campaigns and new avenues for marketing and spreading their message. I mean, we talked to companies who haven't touched their website literally in years because it it's such a pain just to add a new blog post. You're like, how is that gonna be effective for your marketing team when they're literally frozen and can't do anything in the digital realm, right? And then forget all the dollars that you're spending and you're sending people to your, if you're advertising and you're sending people to your website, and it's just, you're spending all this money getting people there and then you're sending them to something that is just kind of, right? So, and I could go on with others, but yeah, there's a lot of reasons to improve it beyond just, you know, the numbers, you know, traffic and legion. Although

SPEAKER_00:

there's certainly a lot to unpack there from everything you just said. I mean, I think that the website should be used as a weapon. And if I'm a salesperson and I have been in a lot of sales roles, I should have that confidence to know that if you go to my website, there's going to be some value that you'll get if you go there, whether it's if you're looking for documents, you're looking for more information, or if there's some videos on the products that we're, you know, demoing today or talking about. And I've been in that situation a lot of times as you were describing as far as handing out that business card and be like don't go to the website though because you know you're not going to be able to find what you want or I've even told people like this is probably many many years ago like oh if you're looking for that information just google it because you'll never find it on our website exactly what kind of like you know feelings are you you know developing in that initial you know discussion with somebody if you're telling them to google something or go someplace else to find the information because it's easier than something that we on

SPEAKER_01:

right I mean look we also have clients who their process for their sales team is still okay if you have a client and they need to have information about a certain product just email everybody and ask if anybody has a nice brochure or a flyer or some information they sent out at some point right and these are relatively decent sized companies that are still operating this way but imagine if your salesperson could just you know they're on a phone with somebody oh yeah you want information about that product here's a link to that product on our website and they're actually excited to share that with people because it's nicely organized the product looks good and they don't have to scan their five different hard drives and old emails just to find information to send people you know it almost becomes or it does it becomes a resource for the sales team as well

SPEAKER_00:

sure and at the end of the day if you're looking for a KPI that's going to save them time which is more money that they can use to actually go you know reach out to more people or do other activities close deals and things like that because I know that I spent a lot of time at least you know pulling down information whether it's you know spending sheets or delivery information. If that was more readily available to a prospect or a customer with 24-7 access or some sort of e-commerce site or just better organization, that would certainly save me a lot of time. I'm sure that other sales people would probably appreciate that as well. But you have to be able to set it up in a way. Speed

SPEAKER_01:

is crucial. You're in sales. The faster you can get information to people, the better. If you have to wait two days just to get a response, but if you get response in 30 seconds, you're like, oh, this company's got their act together. If they can get me information this quickly, they're probably going to serve me better than somebody who I'm still waiting for them to send me a flyer, right? It's just, that's how it works.

SPEAKER_00:

I was just going to say, and that could also be a differentiator from a sales perspective, because if everybody has this complexity, especially like in, you know, life sciences and the chemical industry, there's a lot of complexity to getting information because it could be specific to a region or specific products and things like that. And so if you're able to do that much faster to where you can get it to them instantaneously or even self-service as compared to, oh, I'm looking for this information. I'll get back to you in a week or so. That's a huge problem as far as, once again, that initial feeling that you get from interacting with somebody, which could be, I guess, available on the website. So what's your approach as far as when you're going through this development process with your clients as far as communicating these opportunities, if you will, for really turning the website into a powerhouse salesperson? Would you agree that that the website is your most effective salesperson?

SPEAKER_01:

It should be, right? It absolutely should be your best salesperson because it doesn't sleep, it doesn't eat, it doesn't need to shower, it never needs to change its clothes, right? So imagine if you had somebody on your team that was working 24-7, who always said the right thing, who was always cleanly shaven or at least cleanly trimmed, right? And they always said the right thing and they always always had a good attitude. Like you can't find a person like that, but most people's websites, they just confuse people. They almost give people like an, a negative feeling. And I find it, I'm not surprised because I know this is how it works, but it's amazing to me that people will easily spend, you know, six figures a year on a mediocre salesperson, right. On a five years they've spent at least half a million dollars if not more but they're not willing to spend a fraction of that to build a website that's going to literally be their best salesperson for for the rest of the existence of that company with some you know some upkeep but not at the cost of a of an employee right and that's kind of those are almost entry-level employees at this point in terms of how much salaries cost depending on where you live exactly

SPEAKER_00:

and you mentioned the word confusion and confused buyers they don't buy i mean everyone you know we taught about that all the time. And that's a huge problem. And that's another reason why everything just needs to be aligned. What do you think when companies are looking to hire an agency, like what's the one mistake that you think that they make? My guess would be price. But what do you think is like, am I wrong or right? What do they make the mistake doing as far as when they want to start up a website?

SPEAKER_01:

So it's hard to say that price is a mistake. because that could be too high. It could be too low, but it could be the right price, but just the wrong agency, right? So price definitely varies. I think a big mistake that I see is when companies work with an agency because of the agency's reputation, right? Or not even, I wouldn't even necessarily reputation. It's like, it's a, it's a larger agency. They're like, oh, they've got a larger team. They've got all these different pieces that they can use. And usually when they're on a sales call, they're talking to higher ups in the company that have been around a long time and really understand the process. And then all of a sudden they get to the actual project and, you know, they're spending multiple six figures on this thing. And now they've got some entry-level person managing the project and really cause doing the deliverables. Right. And, and I get that this is a by-product of growing as an agency. Like the top guys can't, our top guys and gals can't always be the ones doing all the work, but that's something to definitely keep an eye out for. when you're working with people. I would say that's probably the biggest thing. It's like, I mean, I've even seen companies like, oh, well, I mean, this is in our world. We work on Webflow a lot. So this is a mistake that we see often. It's like, we want to work with a larger agency. They're saying they can use Webflow and then they get the site built. And numerous times we've had people come back to us with a mess on their hands. They can't edit the site. It's not working properly. It doesn't look good. But they said that they could do Webflow. It's like, just because they said they could do it, Doesn't mean they could. They probably just hired somebody overseas to do the dev work because they thought it was that straightforward and it didn't really matter how it was built. And they just wanted the business. But you really have to understand the technical experience of the company and how are they going to balance design with technical experience, industry knowledge. Like I said, there's a lot of pieces. So is the agency doing this all in-house? Are they outsourcing a lot of it? Is it the same team? Is it higher level, lower level people? You're not necessarily always going to have that visibility, but I would say that's that's probably the biggest mistake that I see on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotcha. What are some trends you think that, um, you know, will disappear in the next two years and which trends do you think will emerge in the next two years as far as website development?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So it's a good question because trends, I find like a lot of trends don't always die easy and it's hard to really identify what is a trend and What is just a way that people are doing things that actually has some merit and will probably continue? Especially with web, when things are evolving so quickly, it's really hard to know, like, where is this going? But one thing that I'm seeing, and I wouldn't necessarily say that this is a trend that's going to die, but I think it's a trend that's almost being adapted maybe too early, is this world of AI, right? And, you know, I think people are really starting to think, well, AI is more than just a chat bot now, right? And I've seen there's a couple, there's actually an agency that I'm aware of and they build beautiful websites. Don't get me wrong. I mean, they're really good at what they do. And they had the idea about a year ago to completely redesign their website and turn their entire website into essentially an AI chat bot. And the idea was like, let's make the website interactive. And I'm sure they have a reason for it. And it's hard to know, like, is this working or not just by looking at the site? But when I go to the site, what bothers me about it I feel like well now I have to think about what to ask just to find information and I feel like you're making me work too hard you know you build beautiful websites just show me how beautiful your websites are and don't force me to think what I'm supposed to ask first right and you go because you go to the website and it's almost it's just like white with some text and a search bar it's like okay well now what do I do so I think that's if anything that's a trend that's just being adapted to early but I think it's the thought process is correct I do think think AI is going to become more and more a part of marketing and communications I don't think it's there fully yet so I don't know if that fully answers your question from the perspective you're looking at it but that's what comes to mind

SPEAKER_00:

it does if you're going to do it do it right I mean you can deploy a new shiny tool but do it effectively I think it's just like anything else as far as an effective website or whatever it is that you're going to build or you're going to make available for your customers I just thought of like two recent like AI conversations that I had one of them which was a with an AI company and I had a request you know it was with an AI bot and I said hey I'm your AI bot what's your problem I said I need something and they're like done it was fixed it was over with it took literally like 30 seconds same experience on another one that actually develops websites I said hey I need something it was an AI bot you know called it out and I said I need something they said they asked me all these questions I had to repeat myself and we went into this long strand and then guess what I was saying that the end of that representative. Can I speak to a real person, please? Yeah. So it was just reminiscent of like, you know, picking up the phone and calling and hitting like, you know, zero over and over again, just to talk to a human being. So there's ways to do it, but it's like, do it the right way. If you're going to deploy like a new tool, they make it easier, not, not harder. These things are supposed to make it

SPEAKER_01:

easier. Yeah. We're supposed to make people's lives easier. And that's why I don't know if it's just that the technology is not quite there yet, or if it's just so early and people are trying to be trendsetters and they're trying to be on the cutting edge of how to incorporate these technologies. And we just don't really have the models for it yet. So it's, I'm not saying it's easy to do, but maybe, maybe we need to transition a little bit more smoothly. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotcha. Um, as far as websites, um, I guess put on your futuristic hat, if you will, what's a website going to look like in 30 years? Like if you think of like where we came from in like the early nineties, um, to now, I don't know, thinking back, like, are they that much different? Like, what's it gonna look like in another 30 to 40 years? Are we gonna even have websites or is it all just gonna be chat GPT version 20?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, that's a really good question because 30 years is almost, I mean, the internet hasn't even been around for 30 years, has it? I mean, that was like just when we could have started accessing the internet was probably about 30 years ago and it was literally text on a white screen and that was it, right? You know, I would say, let's think maybe like five to 10 years from now, but this is something that we're thinking about a lot because we really consider ourselves a cutting edge company in terms of how we do things in terms of how we think about websites and what we're trying to do both visually and technically. So one thing that we're starting to do a lot of, which I think this is only going to evolve and get more powerful is, is thinking, well, how do we integrate the website into more of the company's process in general, right? So as opposed to the website just being a place where, okay, people can go to the internet, search for something, find us, give us their contact information, and then we can have a conversation with them, right? That's kind of what a website does now. And it tells a story and it gets people excited and, you know, there's, it's part of that process, but that's about it. So we're now thinking, okay, well, what about beyond that, right? Now you've got a potential lead. How can you create an additional experience? for that potential lead that brings them further into your company until they become a client. And then once they become a client, how do we use the website then? How do we create an experience for them as a client where we can now manage their process, communicate with them, share information with them, and keep them in touch with us on a more regular basis all through the website? And so we're starting to now do this. We've done this for a bunch of companies now, and they're really loving what it's doing. And we're still kind of doing this on a basic level because I think as softwares get better, you can do these things for cheaper, right? So what might've cost$500,000 five years ago, we can probably do in 50 to$100,000 now, right? And so that's a huge difference when it comes to like, okay, let's really think creatively about what we can do because most companies can't spend those types of numbers, right? But yeah, that's what I see it as. And I mean, if you're talking in the future, I mean, I don't know. I thought a few years ago, came out with their like welcome to the metaverse and this was kind of around the same time as covid and i thought you know if covid keeps going the way it's going and and the metaverse keeps going the way it's going people aren't even going to leave their homes and all of a sudden you're having virtual meetings with avatars that look just like people and you know maybe that's where this is all it was really kind of doom and gloom like the outside is going to be like apocalypse and inside everybody's living in this metaverse you know who knows but you know that's i think i think there's there's room to think that a website's going to just become much more interactive. It's going to really pull you into a company and allow you to experience that company and the people in the company. And the more effectively you can do that, I think the more effectively you're going to create those emotions in people and get them feeling connected to who you are, as opposed to just showing them a bunch of information.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it's going to be like Ready Player One. You ever see that movie? No. What? Did I? Maybe I should. Yeah. It's a Spielberg movie. I think he's usually pretty good about some of those predictions himself, but check it out. Um,

SPEAKER_01:

sorry for the non-secondary.

SPEAKER_00:

It's all good, but let's move on to, uh, one of the most popular portions of this podcast, which is burner to build it. I'll ask you a few, uh, rapid fire questions. You answer burner to build it and maybe a short answer as to why. So we'll start with number one, uh, keyword stuffed SEO blogs. I think that's a popular thing to do. Um, Burn it or build it?

SPEAKER_01:

So I would say build it, but I would also say it really depends on the company. SEO is not always for everyone. There's different reasons, but in general, SEO is still hugely important and keywords and blog posts are a big part of that.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotcha. Number two, AI homepage copy, where I just plugged it into ChatGPT, cut and paste it, and that's my copy of my webpage done.

SPEAKER_01:

Burn it. It's just going to feel generic, right? Why that's not effective. That's easy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Building Google before building for customers. Burn it. I can give a reason. I mean, again, I

SPEAKER_01:

think, you know, what happens when you're building for Google is you have way too much text. You have, you know, way too many, way too much information. You know, there, there's really is a balance between how do we build something that is actually a compelling experience while also communicating with Google. If you're building Google first, your website's just not going to be very attractive.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It makes sense. Um, what about, uh, aggressive Legion forms on pop-ups when I'm on your website so I can capture an email address or something like that? You know, 10% off, put in your email if you want this, as soon as I'm trying to find that information that you put there for me. I would say burn it,

SPEAKER_01:

burn it. Um, look, especially as a scientific company, I get it. We want to, we want to know who's looking at what we want to track people. We want to get people's contact information, but as a scientific company, especially you need to be a resource. And if everything's gated, you're just making it harder for people to access things. And we have clients do this all the time. Like we're going to start getting everything. And eventually, eventually everybody starts ungating things because they realize it's just not, you know, their, their, their resource for this product is not that attractive to people that they're going to go out of their way to give you their information, make it accessible to them. Again, make, make it easy to work with you. Not hard.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. It gives me a bad feeling to go back to, I guess, our previous based discussion. It's just annoying and it's not a good start. Here's another one. Founder's personal story on the homepage. Where does the founder's story belong in this whole mix of website development? I guess that's not really the right part. Burn it or build it. Founder's story.

SPEAKER_01:

In general, I would say burn it. I do think there's room for founder's stories. I think your team is a big part. When I talk to a client that doesn't want to show their team I always say, why, right? Like why hide who you are and everybody's got different reasons, but ultimately like you need to show that there are real people here. And if your founder has a really good story, make that part of the about page. I think if it's a small enough company, maybe, but you know, homepage is, I don't know if homepage is the right place for it.

SPEAKER_00:

Agreed. Blown somewhere, just not on the front page. It's about the customer. It's not about you. Dark mode websites. Everything's dark these days. burn it or build

SPEAKER_01:

it so we like dark mode so I would say build it but again it's not for everybody you know you really have if you're going to do that you need to be aggressive about it and you know you have to build around it and it's not easy to do I think it's you know it's just it takes a lot of design talent to make that work well so I think it's really cool I do think it's attractive I think it can you know for the right brand for the right story it can be really effective so I I would say build it, but with a little bit of a disclaimer there.

SPEAKER_00:

Agreed. Well, if everyone's dark mode, then everyone looks the same. I guess going back to, you know, if you want to differentiate yourself, then stand up from the rest and go light mode. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And if you don't do it well, it's just annoying.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Yes. Number seven, website says digital brochures.

SPEAKER_01:

Burn it. That's what your websites used to be.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not. It's so much more than that. I mean, even like a digital business company, It's just letting people know we exist. Like, no, it's not. You need to create an experience. Brochures don't create emotion, right? Brochures don't pull people in. Brochures are what you send people when they've already gotten to know you and they're asking for information. That's not the job of the website.

SPEAKER_00:

Agreed.

SPEAKER_01:

Number eight, more traffic equals more growth. So I would say burn it too. Obviously, if you can get a million views from the right people versus 10 views from the right people, that's probably better but traffic doesn't always mean the right people. And I think that's really where people have to pay attention. We've had, we actually had a client where they were getting a lot of traffic from their ads. And when we started working with them, cause we do, we do Google ads for our existing clients. We actually ended up cutting their traffic by about, I think it was like by a factor of 10 because they were getting the wrong traffic. And then once we had a 10th of the traffic, now it was concentrated with the right people. And we were able to grow up from there. But if we were an SEO company, just showing them like, look in the, over the last three months, We've cut your traffic by a factor of 10. They're like, well, what are you doing? But traffic doesn't always mean the right people, right? Maybe you're getting a lot of students who are just doing research. Maybe you're getting, I mean, this was, so they were, they manufactured products for the food manufacturing industry. And one of the industries that they served was like bread making industries, like big machines. And the vast majority of their traffic was people looking for a bread machine for their kitchen, right? Not a potential client, but they were getting a lot of traffic. So it was just the wrong traffic.

SPEAKER_00:

Makes sense. I can imagine how that would probably ruffle some feathers, especially as we're talking about KPIs and your traffic goes down. Like, what happened? Yeah, you're not doing a good job. This one's also a hot topic, and we didn't really unpack this one. We could probably do it now. But as far as GEO as compared to SEO, generative engine optimization for AI, is that going to be the next big thing?

SPEAKER_01:

So here's the thing. I would say burn it. Because thinking of it as different than SEO, I think is getting just pulled in the wrong direction. You're talking about companies who are trying to capitalize on a trend. And yes, I do think AI search is really, really important. But if you think about it, where is AI getting its information from? Largely from the internet. And if you're not competing when there's 10 results, you're you're not going to compete when there's one result. And AI is essentially returning the top result for you. And if you can't show up when it's the top 10, you're not going to show up when it's the top one. So there's still some really, really basic best practices that you need to follow. And yeah, there's a little like, you know, AI might, but I mean, Google really likes FAQs too, right? So to say like, well, AI really likes FAQs to do that. Well, you should have been doing that already anyways, right? So I think GEO in terms of like a peeling to ai is is a way to get people to get in front of people and by using ai as this new trend and like we're doing things differently but really it's the same practices and you just need to be doing them well already

SPEAKER_00:

and if

SPEAKER_01:

you're not you need to start doing them

SPEAKER_00:

well well said um that brings us to the last word let's give a sales and marketing leader one big takeaway with something that they can do right now to help their sales and marketing teams

SPEAKER_01:

because we're talking sales and marketing i'm actually going to give a last word for each if that's okay because I think they both need different last words so for marketing I would say give your team freedom to be creative I talk to way too many marketing people that don't ever get to think creatively they're too busy processing spreadsheets and managing ads and looking at stats and creating reports for their boards it's like when was the last time we were just allowed to like sit there and have fun thinking and being creative so give your marketing team room and space and encouragement to just have fun being creative. I think that would make a huge difference. And for sales, we kind of touched on this earlier, but give your sales team something to be proud of, right? Don't expect your sales team to function at their best. I mean, I get it. We've got sales meetings and we've got trainings and we've got scripts and we've got all these things that will help them with the nuts and bolts of sales. But if they're looking at what other people have and they wish that they looked like that and that the company that they were representing looked like that, they're just not going to be as effective as they could be. So give your sales team something to be proud of. I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_00:

Perfect tips. Love it. And where can people find you?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. So I'm on LinkedIn. I try to be pretty active on there. You can look me up by name and Scalar. You can go to our website, scalarmarketing.com. And if you want to reach me in person, I do go to conferences. So if you're at a big conference, we can meet up there, but come to the SAMS conference in December. SAMS is sales and and marketing professionals in science. I'm on the board of SAMS. It's an amazing organization for sales and marketing professionals in science. And our annual conference is gonna be in Boston on December 4th. And it's a really amazing conference with thought leaders and practitioners on every level. The talks are always really informative, insightful, and the energy in the room, you'll leave excited and you'll get to meet a lot of really cool new people. It's gonna be at the Hyatt in Cambridge this year. So we'll have a beautiful view of the Charles River and I will definitely be there. So it'd be a great place to meet.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Sounds good. Maybe I'll see you there. Thank you for joining Burn the Playbook. I hope you do. Appreciate

SPEAKER_01:

it, man. Yeah, this was awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. Bye-bye. Bye. That's how you burn the playbook. If this conversation fired you up, don't let it in here. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Share this episode with someone who's tired of playing by the old rules. And if you're ready to challenge your own sales approach, let's connect. Find me on LinkedIn at Mark Crosby. I'm Mark Crosby. or head to DigitalRebelsConsulting.com to see how we help B2B teams win differently. Until next week, keep burning what's not working and keep building what is.